Tom Sachs & Tom Wolfe

New York Academy of Art. October 8, 2015 (interview)

Source: 0 1 2

A conversation between Tom Wolfe and Tom Sachs.

TRANSCRIPT

MC: But it’s an extremely dynamic tension. It’s old versus new skill versus concept, tradition versus innovation. And tonight Tom versus Tom.

MC: We are lucky to have two creative geniuses with us that represent both ends of our spectrum. In this corner. Tom Wolfe, one of America’s best known and best selling authors. He’s credited with creating the new journalism movement along with the likes of Hunter Thompson and Gay Talese. He is also an artist.

MC: An an illustrator who is designed the covers of several of his own books like he has expressed his strong ideas about art and design through several books and essays, including the painted word an from our house to Bauhaus. In those books he’s made the case that theory has become too important in art.

MC: And that the art world is too controlled by a small elitist network of critics, dealers, and collectors. By the way he’s rumored to have a new book coming out in 2016. I was trying to meet with him for a couple of weeks over the summer and he kept delaying me because he was on deadline so.

MC: I think the deadlines finished by now.

MC: Or is it still?

Tom Wolfe: Got it, got some scrub me up to do.

MC: So OK, OK, but anyway. So we finally did. We finally did get together and had a great afternoon in this corner. Tom Sachs. Tom is an artist, primarily a sculpture.

MC: Best known for his elaborate recreations of cultural icons and luxury brands through duct tape, phone books, foamcore and police barricades like Tom Wolfe Sachs idolizes astronauts, and that thing has continued through his space program, NASA and.

MC: Mars projects. He’s also written many things and produced many writings and and seems on his work usually also illustrated by him. He is interested in the traditional and the handmade and utilizes them in his work, and though the work may be beautiful, the underlying theme is always.

MC: Conceptual, so whether it’s Tom versus Tom or Tom and Tom or Tom loves Tom, we’ll see how the thing goes tonight. I did want to also say thank you to Magnum real estate for hosting this event. We wanted you all to come here to see what our new student housing looks like.

MC: This, by the way, is.

MC: A double it’s not a single.

MC: So just so you know.

MC: And the school itself is just around the corner on Franklin Street between West Broadway and church. And for anybody who has not been there, please come and visit us. We have over 100 Studios with a constantly changing.

MC: Array of very exciting, wonderful, an mostly figurative but not totally mostly figurative work, and we hope to see you next week. It takes a minute on October 18th.

MC: Oh my God.

MC: Dog on the 18th. And by the way, it’s at Sotheby’s not at the school, so don’t show up at the school. Tom Wolf will have a piece in it, and I, uh, I hope by the end of the night, time’s actually agreed to have a piece in it as well. This all is just an elaborate.

MC: Setup to get it to come in something so.

MC: But for tickets see the beautiful Allison Hillier over there or go to our website and wear white in honor of Tom Wolfe, who is one of the honorees along with the art critic Jerry Saltz, so without further ado, I give you Tom and Tom.

Tom Wolfe: Well, I’ll take a shot at.

Tom Wolfe: I did check 2 new.

Tom Wolfe: Art forms today.

Tom Wolfe: When I called, no hands are.

Tom Wolfe: And the other is 10 year apart, as in T for Tom EE for easy and for Nathan.

Tom Wolfe: You are in.

Tom Wolfe: Yeah.

Tom Wolfe: Probably the best examples of.

Tom Wolfe: No hands are Jeff Koons and Richard Serra.

Tom Wolfe: I was just looking at some pictures today.

Tom Wolfe: Jeff Koons and his woman, who was briefly married who called the Cuccinello, who gained fame through a scandal in Italy, was still famous when she came here.

Tom Wolfe: And they had some pictures taken polaroids. I believe of themselves in.

Tom Wolfe: I just about every position that nude bodies convenient.

Tom Wolfe: And so you can imagine.

Tom Wolfe: Um, I couldn’t.

Tom Wolfe: These were sent off to some elves.

Tom Wolfe: In the Midwest and we turned into 3 dimensional. The photographs he didn’t touch the intensity photographs they were sent off to some else in the Midwest I think was Cleveland and they converted him into 3 dimensional glass sculptures.

Tom Wolfe: Portugal.

Tom Wolfe: So extraordinary something.

Tom Wolfe: And there’s no, I mean they.

Tom Wolfe: I don’t know how many.

Tom Wolfe: Copies of each one there is, but there’s no.

Tom Wolfe: That is not necessary limit.

Tom Wolfe: He’s also done 45 for high rabbits.

Tom Wolfe: Other people did them made of dirt. Yeah, other people handling girls getting heated up this thing.

Tom Wolfe: And.

Tom Wolfe: These are a number of other.

Tom Wolfe: Works.

Tom Wolfe: Along that line.

Tom Wolfe: Can your heart?

Tom Wolfe: Is something different?

Tom Wolfe: A lot of it is conceptual art.

Tom Wolfe: And the idea is to.

Tom Wolfe: Well, I’ll give you an example.

Tom Wolfe: This is one I saw near Lakeland FL.

Tom Wolfe: The artist invited as many people as he could to.

Tom Wolfe: Media matters what was actually a like a small Lake.

Tom Wolfe: Coming and.

Tom Wolfe: He had with him 8.

Tom Wolfe: I’m really heavy chain. I barely heard that I’ve ever seen aside from something on a ship.

Tom Wolfe: Away delaughter either end of the chain he had a large polyurethane bag full of vegetables.

Tom Wolfe: So he laid the.

Tom Wolfe: Chain on top of the water.

Tom Wolfe: Um, of course I could be related to the bottom, but use mostly come back. I think it was 2 two months or something. I think I went. I was curious. I heard back.

Tom Wolfe: And now the chain was lying on with a stretch across the top of the water. The vegetables had rotted.

Tom Wolfe: Alright, in the bag creating a gas.

Tom Wolfe: That was enough to to lift it up. Now. I mean, I was astounded, but there’s no way you could sell that.

Tom Wolfe: That’s where tenure art comes in.

Tom Wolfe: Also, the tenure artists are conceptual, and if you can do enough things like that enough works like that and get some publicity.

Tom Wolfe: You have a pretty good shot at getting a job teaching on the faculty, and after six years it used to be 10 years after six years. Now you get tenure.

Tom Wolfe: And you’re not going to live this high, but you’re not going to have to live hard.

Tom Wolfe: You will be paid until your retirement age and then you get a pension.

Tom Wolfe: No more starving artist today.

Tom Wolfe: So.

Tom Wolfe: Those are I.

Tom Wolfe: I have changed.

Tom Wolfe: A lot since I wrote the painted.

Tom Wolfe: Work Oh my gosh, when did that come out?

Tom Wolfe: About 19, about 1980. I guess seven 1976.

Tom Wolfe: And it’s true.

Tom Wolfe: It’s exciting.

Tom Wolfe: No, I’m not done. That would be great.

Tom Sachs

I love those artists and this year we lost Chris Burton, who is the kind of artists who might have done a piece like the chain and the and the gas and the routing vegetables and.

Tom Sachs

I’m not sure.

Tom Sachs

How I fit in with that? But I I would say that.

Tom Sachs

Because I work with people and I do, I have.

Tom Sachs

Valves in the Midwest.

Tom Sachs

But I also have a team of 10 people that I work with and I I like to think of a studio as a as a teaching hospital.

Tom Sachs

Where there’s a lot of.

Tom Sachs

Everything’s hands on, you can see out of my hands are sliced up and with my hands aren’t cut up in callus it means I’m too busy polishing that plastic keyboard with my fingertips writing emails. But there is a virtue in making that still very alive.

Tom Sachs

And certainly among some of the number of the artists are in this room here. We and it might not be the biggest trend right now, but I can. I’m only going to speak to what I do and what I think is important because I’m not devoted to the work of others. Otherwise I’d be working for them. Obviously very.

Tom Sachs

Devoted to what we do.

Tom Sachs

But um.

Tom Sachs

You know, I I.

Tom Sachs

I have to admit, you know I’m a huge fan which want that one of those. So anything that I say that’s smart, 60% of that came from Tom just recycling it.

Tom Sachs

Turned out to be no, but.

Tom Sachs

Then all the dumb stuff’s on the.

Tom Sachs

But I did read we read the pin word, which is great an I still still still think very relevant even though of course.

Tom Sachs

Rose

Tom Sachs

But I I guess I I was taken with a couple of things one.

Tom Sachs

There’s a passage about Picasso.

Tom Sachs

And in the painted world, I don’t know if you remember this, but you did write it.

Tom Sachs

We talk about.

Tom Wolfe: So he he he figured out.

Tom Wolfe

To get rich gracefully, yes.

Tom Sachs

And not have.

Tom Sachs

Holes in his sneakers, like I’m rocking today.

Tom Sachs

How he would show up at at the events and and custom made some real clothes and versus the young artist who shows up at the museum modern art gala wearing a paint splatter jeans an at the at the black tie event saying I’m just a kid. Don’t take me seriously quest. He managed to figure out how to.

Tom Sachs

Bohemian and bourgeois at the same time.

Tom Sachs

Is that fair?

Tom Sachs

And I, I think the main difference, I think, in the things that have changed since that was written now, is that there have been some words invented like Generation X or Generation Y and Millennials that have defined in a different understanding of what wealth and power means in art.

Tom Sachs

In our society it’s.

Tom Sachs

And even since radical chic, there’s been a different perspective on sitting in radical chic. You say that the history of New York socialite is is as complex. The history of the political politics in the Caribbean.

Tom Wolfe

Tom Sachs

You said.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah.

Tom Sachs

So I I, I think it’s interesting how and what I loved about painting. Word wasn’t so much all the art stuff because I don’t like. I don’t know. I hate art.

Tom Sachs

No, and that’s I make it because.

Tom Sachs

Yeah and no one else is.

Tom Sachs

Gonna do it right, so that’s why I do it.

Tom Sachs

Exactly right, I mean there.

Tom Sachs

Are couple of people in this room that do.

Tom Sachs

A pretty good job, no fans, but this constraint.

Tom Wolfe

Yes, there are going to be at when Rambo.

Tom Wolfe

Was informed by.

Tom Wolfe

A journalist that he wasn’t.

Tom Wolfe

Considered the greatest hits, 32 years old. Considered the greatest artist in France.

Tom Wolfe

His response was mid pull up Boise.

Tom Wolfe

Which I thought was and showed that he.

Tom Wolfe

Just didn’t care, right? He absolutely, absolutely didn’t care.

Tom Wolfe

Um?

Tom Wolfe

Yeah, I think because will carry.

Tom Wolfe

Now as my as I understand it.

Tom Wolfe

The Castle quit art school at 8:15, saying that there’s nothing more like teaching. Unfortunately, the very next month and next semester. Rather, they were teaching anatomy and perspective.

Tom Wolfe

And if I found myself in a hole like that.

Tom Wolfe

I didn’t finish something called Cubism.

Tom Wolfe

I had no perspective and it really doesn’t.

Tom Wolfe

Matter how you draw it again.

Tom Wolfe

But he that started it then started bad.

Tom Wolfe

Exactly 1900 to listen.

Tom Wolfe

And some of the other artists, friends who like.

Tom Wolfe

Right, for example, how?

Tom Wolfe

Couldn’t stand the.

Tom Wolfe

He’s got a cavalier attitude towards them.

Tom Wolfe

To the extent right down the.

Tom Wolfe

The attitude of artist today is his.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah.

Tom Wolfe

It’s pretty interesting to Maine.

Tom Wolfe

I’m trying to think they Maurizio.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah.

Tom Wolfe

Wow.

Tom Wolfe

Heading one of his recent works is manicle. Many cans of ship.

Tom Wolfe

And that’s what we get.

Tom Wolfe

Because this had been done before by.

Tom Sachs

Manzoni, yeah.

Tom Wolfe

It did something called a shitshow.

Tom Wolfe

And this is part of taking art out of the studio or studio environment.

Tom Wolfe

Um?

Tom Wolfe

And.

Tom Wolfe

Pushing in a ways.

Tom Wolfe

And there’s.

Tom Wolfe

You never performance, I didn’t.

Tom Wolfe

See much of that equipment.

Tom Wolfe

But performance art.

Tom Wolfe

What is her name she?

Tom Wolfe

Appears she doesn’t appear negative anymore.

Tom Wolfe

Maria yeah.

Tom Wolfe

Yes.

Tom Wolfe

I don’t know why she quits now, I mean.

Tom Wolfe

By clicking when you made it to 60 this way.

Tom Wolfe

But that’s kind of the way to just kind of the way it goes.

Tom Sachs

Will talk dentek. She keeps it going. It’s authentic.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah, exactly.

Tom Wolfe

One of her recent shows.

Tom Wolfe

To get to the show, unless she’s still going negative, this one. There were two naked people at the door.

Tom Wolfe

A man and a woman. And you had to squeeze between you think there’s no way you could walk again. You will squeeze between them to get just to see the top is lady inside.

Tom Wolfe

And.

Tom Wolfe

I suppose azarova kind.

Tom Wolfe

Well can I can I ask you some questions?

Tom Wolfe

Making sure not guaranteed to get ready.

Tom Wolfe

At some place.

Tom Sachs

Because there was an issue that to me is plaguing.

Tom Sachs

Me or it’s my if the focus of not just the art that I make any other artists in this room mate, but it’s almost the plague of consumerism. And it’s this constant search for authenticity.

Tom Sachs

And whether it’s Marina not being naked now that she’s 70. If that is an expression of inauthenticity or fear, or

Tom Sachs

Nothing, it’s just more UN gracefully than a beautiful woman’s ego or whatever.

Tom Sachs

Yeah.

Speaker 2

The the desire for authenticity is.

Tom Sachs

Seems like the most valuable thing that we have this culture makers.

Tom Sachs

And whether that’s authenticity of an experience as told by a writer or the authentic experience of Art, where does it come from? Why are these people making these things like? Why would you make?

Tom Sachs

The performance piece you just described or what would you make a giant?

Tom Sachs

Bunny or whatever.

Tom Sachs

Pictures of you and your girlfriend made into glass.

Speaker 2

I mean, I think I.

Speaker 2

I think I know why I do it, but I’m curious if you if you know if you’ve been able to.

Tom Sachs

Through all of your.

Tom Sachs

Observations of not just art, but the world find a connection between the different kinds of authenticity that people seek and why they make stuff.

Tom Wolfe

I think most people who become artists or writers.

Tom Wolfe

I have no idea of making a.

Tom Wolfe

Living, I mean that just seems.

Tom Wolfe

Somehow you’ll do it.

Tom Wolfe

Which is kind of is.

Tom Wolfe

Is it’s kind of nice.

Tom Wolfe

But there’s always a danger if you made it with one particular picture or piece of music, or it may be.

Tom Wolfe

That you get.

Tom Wolfe

You get stuck in that because success. You don’t want to let that success go.

Tom Wolfe

He was born in human.

Tom Wolfe

Spent the last 22 years of his life so trying to workout.

Tom Wolfe

The problem is, if any of putting.

Tom Wolfe

Stripes of color assigned.

Tom Wolfe

One another, I think it could have moved on he saw.

Tom Sachs

Who is so good at it?

Tom Wolfe

People liked it. I mean they are.

Tom Wolfe

The art world, but why is it that I love the phrase The Art World?

Tom Wolfe

The art world.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah, I figured is made of made up of. I used to. I used to fit the figure of 10,000 people worldwide album maybe.

Tom Wolfe

Is a little more now, but of which about 3000, when the United States and 2700 of those with in our toasted New York.

Tom Wolfe

And that’s probably changed. This probably changed.

Tom Wolfe

A little a little bit.

Tom Wolfe

And.

Tom Wolfe

The idea that.

Tom Wolfe

The public is turning it back on great art.

Tom Wolfe

Is a.

Tom Wolfe

Laughable.

Tom Wolfe

Oh laughable theory, because they don’t see great art. They’re sending memo after it’s done saying This is.

Tom Wolfe

These are the Great.

Tom Wolfe

Artist in this year.

Tom Wolfe

And they either just accept that or or they don’t. But then the the 3000, let’s say if that’s a correct number in New York there.

Tom Wolfe

Or the least of all groups.

Tom Wolfe

The critics of Messenger boys today.

Tom Wolfe

They just get the word from the art world.

Tom Wolfe

And they bring it to the newspapers. When’s the last time you saw a printing on a major newspaper or magazine? Go out on a limb saying This is like this guy is the greatest?

Tom Wolfe

You’ve never seen anyone you when nobody else was agreeing. It doesn’t happen anymore. It used to happen where there would be prediction made later point.

Tom Wolfe

Oh, going out ahead of the crowd, no, no longer.

Tom Wolfe

And it’s I think there’s kind of that that that’s kind of A.

Tom Wolfe

A shame, but the art world is made up of Curators.

Tom Wolfe

Um?

Tom Wolfe

Collectors and Gallery owners.

Tom Wolfe

Um and.

Tom Wolfe

Some artists so that there.

Tom Wolfe

Are some artists who remember that after that world?

Tom Wolfe

And they make all of the decisions and the same thing is true in Italy. Same is true in France, England.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah.

Tom Wolfe

Anne.

Tom Wolfe

It’s it is not a world, it’s a, It’s a.

Tom Wolfe

It’s a complete, it’s a community.

Tom Wolfe

Oh, I love things today though I notices.

Tom Wolfe

Can we talk about the money in our?

Tom Wolfe

There is a.

Tom Wolfe

Very wealthy collectors have a tremendous impact.

Tom Wolfe

In art is a.

Tom Wolfe

Interesting if you think of it as a commodity. It’s about the only one in which every.

Tom Wolfe

Piece is unique.

Tom Wolfe

Oh, you can you know books you can sell?

Tom Wolfe

Yeah.

Tom Wolfe

300,000 copies of.

Tom Wolfe

The book and there’s nobody.

Tom Wolfe

Feels OK with them.

Tom Wolfe

Epic Laidlaw said authenticity of the piece.

Tom Wolfe

But in in artists and art, it’s a different story.

Tom Sachs

Is some says the?

Tom Sachs

World’s largest unregulated commodities market.

Tom Wolfe

That is true. I mean, there are things you can do in the ways you get hyped. Certain people got high prices.

Tom Wolfe

That would be literally against the law.

Tom Sachs

Yeah, it happens. I’ve seen it.

Tom Wolfe

And any any other industry that.

Tom Wolfe

Was I think all our industry.

Tom Wolfe

Oh, and.

Tom Wolfe

When you get into esoteric things like furniture.

Tom Wolfe

Oh, and there’s a furniture auction coming up.

Tom Wolfe

The planning done by the major dealer ‘cause, nobody, but the deals really knows what’s going on in the furniture.

Tom Wolfe

The planning on who’s on things like who’s going to win the auction.

Tom Wolfe

Yes, that would be allowed either. I mean not even be allowed, you’re right.

Tom Sachs

Well, eventually I can see that that stuff changing, but for now it’s still.

Tom Sachs

It’s still a little still, little Gray.

Tom Sachs

But to me, going back to the idea of the critics seemed a little heartbreaking. Is did. Did anyone know or study with Sidney tell ‘em, do you know, Sidney?

Tom Sachs

It must not.

Tom Sachs

Anyway, said he said that a critic.

Tom Sachs

He wrote for arts and.

Tom Sachs

Other things, and he he wrote.

Tom Sachs

Critic is a man with ideas. I think that’s what you were saying, that you barely see. An art art critic in a newspaper standing up and saying.

Tom Sachs

Anything one way or another about an artist usually.

Tom Sachs

If anything will condemn it ‘cause everyone thought.

Tom Sachs

That once it loves to be a hater that’s easy.

Tom Sachs

But to have an idea about starting to bring it to light is something that I think the artists need are the art community needs people with ideas because I, you know, I’ve got ideas about my heart and I write about him, but ultimately they’re just an excuse for my blue collar activities. I really like just putting up bathroom shelves. That’s my.

Tom Sachs

Goal, that’s where I was going. That’s where I’m like, Mike fast even with tile I’m not afraid of drilling into tile.

Tom Sachs

But community is very important and we need people with ideas and the critics that I run into very often use overly complex words like to shore up their on on complex ideas.

Tom Sachs

God love relational aesthetics. That’s not my favorite. One state I’ve just been watching Hennessy youngman. Is anyone watch Tennessee younger OK? Does anyone worship at the temple in Tennessee?

Tom Sachs

Is great critic art critic and who is up his medium is on YouTube so you can go watch him talk about art on YouTube and his his bit about relational aesthetics. Relational aesthetics is basically.

Tom Sachs

Have a have a party invite all your friends in an art Gallery and.

Tom Sachs

Caller relational aesthetics that state this issue takes a little.

Tom Sachs

Better than that.

Tom Sachs

But that seems to be refined. Keeps it that simple.

Tom Wolfe

Or what’s going to happen?

Tom Wolfe

When I moved into the area of the Instagram.

Tom Wolfe

And Twitter, yes.

Tom Sachs

28,000 followers everybody.

Tom Wolfe

That’s gonna be interesting.

Tom Sachs

It’s there I am obsessed with it. I’m embarrassed and mortified, that’s my crack.

Tom Sachs

Recently just unfollowed everyone because I can’t control myself, but every image that goes in there I obsess over. In fact, I just posted about 40 minutes ago saying with a picture of the sign that was out front saying This is happening now and the comments will be things like.

Speaker 2

What the **** man? Why didn’t you give me a little fair warning?

Tom Sachs

Stuff like that. ‘cause what I’m gonna get?

Speaker 2

But it is community.

Tom Sachs

And I’m reaching 28,000 people are scanning past that in a 10th of a second.

Tom Wolfe

It’s not bad 28,000.

Tom Sachs

These are real followers. These aren’t random like phony Asian like cyborgs. These are real people.

Tom Wolfe

Marshall Mcluhan

Tom Wolfe

Sanism in the I’ve got 1967.

Tom Wolfe

That

Tom Wolfe

OK.

Tom Wolfe

In, in, in, in the future.

Tom Wolfe

There will be no.

Tom Wolfe

Really, no audience for newspapers and magazines said that by itself is a shrimp, and he said it’s because the new generation of people born.

Tom Wolfe

50s I guess he said are.

Tom Wolfe

They are the television has turned tribal Adonis. We could explain.

Tom Wolfe

The steps here.

Tom Wolfe

Television is turned in trouble and tribal people.

Tom Wolfe

If handed a piece of paper.

Tom Wolfe

With writing on it.

Tom Wolfe

Assume it’s a trip.

Tom Wolfe

They won’t believe.

Tom Wolfe

Anything that somebody hasn’t told it personally.

Tom Wolfe

And that has come true.

Tom Wolfe

Today

Tom Wolfe

Do you think of blogs?

Tom Wolfe

A blog is that guy whispering in your ear.

Tom Wolfe

And as you.

Tom Wolfe

But people really do pay attention to compliance, even if the blog says something like.

Tom Wolfe

Dawson

Tom Wolfe

I can’t remember his first name, but that’s OK in the block.

Tom Wolfe

You can go on like that.

Tom Wolfe

There’s less and less news is checked.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Tom Wolfe

I mean, I knew I worked on newspapers here for 10 years and.

Tom Wolfe

Constantly checking out facts, constantly checking, calling your people to make.

Tom Wolfe

Sure you got it right.

Tom Sachs

But if you, if you follow A blog or your.

Tom Sachs

That’s your part of your tribe. You trap. You’re trusting that person, even if their crazy and more on research.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah, well, it’s I. I agree with that.

Tom Wolfe

But there’s less and less an actual noodles being being covered. I mean, I enjoy reading The Daily Beast there, or several those online services, but they they cherrypick they they see a juicy story. They run it, but they’re not going around.

Tom Wolfe

English education beats 2.

Tom Wolfe

Just to see what the the trends are. Only education Peter newspaper. He’s lucky if you got two stories in the newspaper of week, but you’re out there talking to attack, that’s it.

Tom Wolfe

It just doesn’t happen any longer.

Tom Wolfe

I don’t know who you trust.

Tom Sachs

Yeah, I don’t. I wanna say you know, Trust Beyoncé, but you can’t.

Tom Wolfe

Well, I don’t know why I haven’t been listening to her recently.

Tom Wolfe

I’ve seen it again.

Speaker 2

But this is there.

Speaker 2

Is there art that you love? So there is as much as I hate art?

Tom Sachs

And you know, I always think of what C Montgomery Burns says I.

Tom Sachs

Who’s the evil power plant owner of The Simpsons?

Tom Sachs

I don’t know about art.

Tom Sachs

But I know what I hate and I don’t hate this that much.

Tom Sachs

And there are things that I loved out there or I should say that things I don’t hate that much. Is there anything that you don’t hate that much?

Tom Wolfe

Well my I try not to let this influence my opinions, but my favorite artist.

Tom Wolfe

Worked for a magazine called simpler systems. Needed social satire and they had been influenced by the discovery of Japanese painting, which the discovery was late in the 19th century.

Tom Wolfe

And so they were terrific.

Tom Wolfe

You all.

Tom Wolfe

Trained artists that were terrific at doing features, particularly faces on hands, but they would leave other spaces.

Tom Wolfe

Blank or just a solid? A solid color.

Tom Wolfe

And people like, Oh Laughable. Branson, one of the best Bruno Paul Rudolph Vilca.

Tom Wolfe

Um?

Tom Wolfe

I look at those magazines.

Tom Wolfe

Scott is over.

Tom Wolfe

In fact, I have some some bounding simply so this big.

Tom Wolfe

Um?

Tom Wolfe

And you don’t do it today. The satirical artists are not trained artists most of the time. You can see this in in. In political cartoons came really.

Tom Wolfe

Do not know any anatomy.

Tom Wolfe

It’s a scared.

Tom Wolfe

I think I’m better would all be. I don’t care what what side they’re on. If they were just Masters with it.

Tom Wolfe

Of the craft.

Tom Wolfe

But maybe that’s asking.

Tom Sachs

Yeah, I don’t I.

Tom Wolfe

Didn’t I didn’t do it now?

Tom Sachs

But I but I, you know someone should. Drawing is is about confidence, right? It’s just about having, I think I can draw better than anybody.

Tom Sachs

Else in this room, but.

Tom Sachs

But my way.

Tom Wolfe

That’s fair enough.

Tom Wolfe

And can’t argue with that.

Tom Wolfe

Exactly, I think the greatest thing about drawing as a test whether you want to do drawings or not.

Tom Wolfe

Indicate you have control that you can do exactly what you what you want, and then you can go.

Tom Wolfe

It’s almost like a.

Tom Wolfe

Basic training I think. Then you go off and do anything you want.

Tom Wolfe

Do anything.

Tom Wolfe

Search for drawing.

Tom Wolfe

Adam.

Tom Wolfe

Today in many ways.

Tom Wolfe

It’s conceptual art takes take center stage in the.

Tom Wolfe

In the 20th century.

Tom Wolfe

There was a constant attempt to refine art.

Tom Wolfe

So Cubism becomes a reaction against.

Tom Wolfe

Falls studio work.

Tom Wolfe

And then.

Tom Wolfe

You get all into all the.

Tom Wolfe

The isn’t something.

Tom Wolfe

The late teens and 19.

Tom Wolfe

Vorticism band

Tom Wolfe

Solidly left, impressionism fine, but

Tom Wolfe

Until finally

Tom Wolfe

We got the abstract expression of how many people remember that they could never sell those bags they could. They could praise him through the skies, but nobody would thought.

Tom Wolfe

A friend of mine was one time train.

Tom Wolfe

With Jackson Pollock coming in from Connecticut. And he just happened to know Jackson public and public with going over some figures and it turned out that he was making out his income tax and his income for that particular year was $2200.

Tom Wolfe

And this is at a time when.

Tom Wolfe

He had had double tracked spreads in life magazines.

Tom Wolfe

Calling him

Jack

Tom Wolfe

The Dripper.

Tom Wolfe

You couldn’t get anymore publicity.

Tom Wolfe

They were just not. It was just not something that’s why.

Tom Wolfe

People love pop art so much collectors did.

Tom Wolfe

But pop artists could not do anything they wanted. I mean, they had. They had to do things that had already been done. You think of all the love comics?

Tom Wolfe

Right, I can see that.

Tom Wolfe

Carpet, pretty pretty.

Tom Wolfe

Faithfully, if you try to do something.

Tom Wolfe

Creative you would be.

Tom Wolfe

You would be left out of the loop.

Tom Wolfe

But instead of.

Tom Wolfe

And.

Tom Wolfe

I thought that was that was Andy Warhol.

Tom Wolfe

You done.

Tom Wolfe

He do.

Tom Wolfe

A piece about a car wreck into several words, but it’s very important that they be painted. Photographs of actual car wrecks rather than something that came out of his.

Tom Wolfe

Imagination then that was finally superseded by.

Tom Wolfe

Things are the same tiny retire in their scope.

Tom Wolfe

Such as.

Tom Wolfe

How you feel you finally get down to two things like.

Tom Wolfe

Conceptual art.

Tom Wolfe

In which.

Tom Wolfe

People try to make it.

Tom Wolfe

Smaller and smaller and smaller to find you get.

Tom Wolfe

The plastic piece I’m trying to think.

Tom Wolfe

I tried with the artist was in which he just had a list of instructions we said.

Tom Sachs

Solo it.

Tom Wolfe

It was great.

Tom Wolfe

I said you may view the.

Tom Wolfe

Picture or maybe view the work of water you don’t, but you don’t have to.

Tom Wolfe

And or you can can view it and remember it.

Tom Wolfe

Oh, you don’t have to even look at it. And this is this and this is just.

Tom Wolfe

That was about as as tiny as his experience of argument could get other than just simply.

Tom Wolfe

Not looking at, not writing.

Tom Sachs

I would argue that the conceptual artists, like the ones that when you’re talking about, we’re actually finding an authentic experience. Whereas like if you look at the.

Tom Sachs

Abstract, expected Rippers or the OR the Barnett newmans, obsessing about how colors and stripes were.

Tom Sachs

Next to each other.

Tom Sachs

Then I imagine the conceptual artists traveling to California.

Tom Sachs

Leaving New York which is.

Tom Sachs

The people in the art world that left Paris.

Tom Sachs

And you can.

Tom Sachs

See, you know start from the Renaissance across Europe to Paris to New York and finally winding up at the edge of western civilization, California. That Malibu on the coast looking out the water. And like how the **** am I going to make art here? You’ve got Hollywood, which is destroyed.

Tom Sachs

So laws of reality, imaginary tales. You’ve got the military and NASA destroying laws of physics, making rocket ships that go to the moon and kill God or stealth bombers or whatever. How am I going to make art? And so these guys I’m thinking like John Baldessari.

Tom Sachs

Bruce, now more solid part.

Tom Sachs

They are my favorite Douglas Hubler trying to create art. So what they do is they create a set of rules under which they’re going to create art because they are. They’re up against the existential abyss. There’s nothing left and so.

Tom Sachs

John baldassarri fans down on the ground he picks up.

Tom Sachs

For tennis balls and he throws him up in the air and he quickly takes his camera and shoots a picture and and the piece is called 4 balls thrown in the air to make a perfect square. Best of 36 tries and it’s good to on the film somebody you don’t know this but filming step 36 exposure or so.

Tom Sachs

And then the other piece was 36 photos and that was the piece, and although it might sound kind of deadpan, and like nothing’s really happening there, it was this attempt at finding meaning, and through these really simple gestures, of course, excellent presentation skills.

Tom Sachs

All these guys.

Tom Sachs

They were able to find something that communicated about their experience.

Tom Wolfe

And, well, I don’t know what I like is doing when he builds a.

Tom Wolfe

Should we call it?

Tom Wolfe

A piece of sculpture out of 1200 bicycles.

Tom Wolfe

And they are looking at different angles upon each other, so that finally.

Tom Wolfe

The Tower of bicycles.

Tom Wolfe

Is 900 feet.

Tom Wolfe

It’s like a nine Storey building.

Tom Wolfe

Um?

Tom Wolfe

I don’t know the word that many bicycles or investing in China. I guess there are probably lots of ‘em.

Tom Wolfe

This was done on a.

Tom Wolfe

A small scale by Gabriel Roscoe. No kindling.

Tom Wolfe

Famous Alaska.

Tom Wolfe

And he did.

Tom Wolfe

A sculptor, just four bicycles. It’s much admired.

Tom Wolfe

But

Tom Wolfe

It’s this there is a a definite trend which using things that are already made.

Tom Wolfe

And.

Tom Wolfe

Museum in in, in, in, in. Different and in different ways and and there are people.

Tom Wolfe

Could say that what the New York Academy does.

Tom Wolfe

Is it unthinkable?

Tom Wolfe

That was done in.

Tom Wolfe

1645

Tom Wolfe

That’s a, That’s one of the reasons.

Tom Wolfe

I like the Academy so much it it’s not afraid to be revolutionary service. It’s a revolutionary approach.

Tom Wolfe

These days

Tom Wolfe

And in in, in a way, it’s too bad that photography exists because in the past.

Tom Wolfe

You could paint a portrait.

Tom Wolfe

And a generation later, everybody is in fact, that’s.

Tom Wolfe

That’s Sir Henry.

Tom Wolfe

To handle the smallest detail ‘cause nobody can check, yeah, check it out.

Tom Wolfe

Now you can check out these things out.

Tom Wolfe

You know the portraitists often have a saying.

Tom Wolfe

There’s a little something wrong.

Tom Wolfe

About the mouth, yeah.

Tom Wolfe

And often there is, but it was in the past. Nobody had anybody had that.

Tom Wolfe

That problem, what the disappearance of gradual disappearance?

Tom Wolfe

Newspapers are going to do that.

Tom Wolfe

So now I I don’t. I really don’t know.

Tom Wolfe

Can’t be with somebody.

Tom Sachs

Well, I have to agree it’s the schools important because one of the things that the hardest to master about being an artist is.

Tom Sachs

Taking time to really see things for what they are.

Tom Sachs

And the studio’s Bible is.

Tom Sachs

Lawrence Weschler’s book. About Robert Irwin.

Tom Sachs

Seeing is forgetting the name of the thing that one sees.

Tom Sachs

And to really see something you forget what it’s called, you just see it for what it is and there’s nothing like drawing. It forces you to do that. If you don’t, you can’t draw without seeing it when you can can kind of campus becomes a doodle or scribble, but really, by seeing how light hits an object, there’s no more.

Tom Sachs

Meditative Act and.

Tom Sachs

It’s one of the foundations for thinking about stuff and without thinking about things. It’s not really art unless it’s.

Tom Sachs

I don’t know.

Tom Sachs

Some kind of?

Tom Sachs

Primal Scream are thing where it’s just about you’re in but.

Tom Sachs

And I think that’s got great virtues, so with you.

Tom Wolfe

Well, I learned well. I think I learn anatomy by.

Tom Wolfe

Doing drawings of boxes in Ring magazine.

Tom Wolfe

That was great. I mean, you really get a lot of angles, bodies and so forth. The one problem is their hands are covered these drugs.

Tom Wolfe

So then I realized.

Tom Wolfe

Then it became an obsession with me.

Tom Wolfe

Learning to draw hands.

Tom Wolfe

And now I I must confess, I judged mostly realistic work. First, like first, I go to the hands.

Tom Sachs

What do you think of Leonardo?

Tom Sachs

I’m trying to remember who is famous for being bad at drawing hands, right? That’s one of those weird things. If it means like the artist, right?

Tom Wolfe

Well, that was certainly true love.

Tom Wolfe

Along with the Eric.

Tom Wolfe

Rockstar points and of course Picasso well. Picasso had been so distorted even he did not draw. He didn’t really have to draw hands.

Tom Wolfe

But others, when they were in that.

Tom Wolfe

Early bound and Arthur is still doing figures.

Tom Wolfe

It was ingenious.

Tom Wolfe

Where they would hide the hands behind the back.

Tom Wolfe

Because they just couldn’t do them.

Tom Wolfe

‘cause you’ve got five different planes. I gotta figure out that you’re working with.

Tom Wolfe

Maybe I shouldn’t be so narrow minded, just keep looking at hands like that.

Tom Sachs

It’s the ultimate measure.

Tom Sachs

Well, tans is how how we think right without our hands where.

Tom Wolfe

You know we’re.

Tom Sachs

Not human.

Tom Sachs

I need to be there, have been great books.

Tom Sachs

About the how that in hand in the brain have to evolve together the opposable thumb.

Tom Sachs

Oh, there’s another whole Ave.

Tom Wolfe

Evolutionary.

Tom Wolfe

Science.

Tom Wolfe

There’s a lot about the relationship between hands and speech.

Tom Wolfe

As if you couldn’t can’t do speech without the hands, I don’t know if that’s true or not.

Tom Sachs

Well, there’s that fantastic, like the best worst written best book ever called a Craftsman by Richard Sennett.

Tom Sachs

I don’t know if you’re going to read that one.

Tom Wolfe

I know who he is.

Tom Sachs

Great premise and he goes extensively into conversation to thought about.

Tom Sachs

The about the hand.

Tom Sachs

And how it’s an extension of our mind?

Tom Wolfe

Well, if you get into.

Tom Wolfe

If you find a civilization that made tools.

Tom Wolfe

You can be sure.

Tom Wolfe

But they could speak.

Tom Wolfe

Give speeches.

Tom Wolfe

Speech is the primal artifact.

Tom Wolfe

And only when you have.

Tom Wolfe

Speech can you make other artifacts whether.

Tom Wolfe

It’s an axle or.

Tom Wolfe

747 Air Airplane

Tom Wolfe

It’s a whole universe.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah.

Tom Wolfe

But if it runs against.

Tom Wolfe

The The Science of painting which is I keep being told. I don’t really understand what it means, is that right brain activity.

Tom Wolfe

Because I asked it well anyway.

Tom Sachs

We build a 747 by.

Tom Sachs

Cooperating with each other, we can’t. No man can build a 747 by themselves.

Tom Wolfe

So they can build on actually lived up to.

Tom Wolfe

Honey again, having that.

Tom Sachs

Right, it takes and so that speech, and that’s how we dominate is through cooperation, right?

Oh, Speaking of speech and hands, I wanted to see if anybody wanted to raise their hand and ask questions to be there. These two gentlemen in the remaining time that we have.

Speaker 3

This whole Rd. The first great piece about the excess is of art. Collecting in 1968 about the skulls.

Speaker 3

And I was wondering, when you split this that excess if you ever imagined that it could just keep going and keep going and keep going.

Tom Wolfe

That book had absolutely no effect.

Tom Wolfe

O it did keep going.

Tom Wolfe

And going and going.

Tom Wolfe

Until.

Tom Wolfe

Until you have things like no hands are. I mean when you consider that Jeff Curbs now has 120 people, that’s the last figure I saw.

Tom Wolfe

Working for him.

Tom Wolfe

And then they do.

Tom Wolfe

Drawings that he indicates after the conception of on a computer and then they use computers and so you have those drawings by Jeff Koons.

Tom Wolfe

Who could say?

Tom Wolfe

But it’s a huge. It’s a. It’s a huge operation. This is big and operational.

Tom Wolfe

Biggest operation is in any of the greatest challenge of the Renaissance. Yeah, they had. They had some lots of lots of folks. Raphael had lots of folks.

Tom Wolfe

But

Tom Wolfe

That

Tom Wolfe

That that beats all.

Tom Wolfe

Who would have ever seen him coming?

Tom Wolfe

2030 years ago, when I wrote that book.

Tom Wolfe

Like as both the tones are when you discuss.

Tom Wolfe

The diminishment of people’s hearts.

Speaker 3

End of newspapers of administrative newspapers.

Tom Wolfe

I notebook I would send it totally unreadable and I love.

Tom Sachs

Him worst written best book is such a good idea, worse crafted.

Speaker 4

But the the Craftsman is about exactly what you’re talking about about hands and having a sensitivity for materials, etc. So what I want to ask you is, given the diminishment of these skills or time to look at these things.

Speaker 4

What else do you think we’re losing and is it lost, or is something else replacing it that you are excited enough? That is a good thing? Or is it all downhill from here?

Tom Wolfe

Well defined, one big problem, I think is that, Oh yeah.

Tom Wolfe

I got the more common.

Tom WolfeAudio file

tomsachsandtomwolf.mp3

Transcript

But it’s an extremely dynamic tension. It’s old versus new skill versus concept, tradition versus innovation. And tonight Tom versus Tom.

We are lucky to have two creative geniuses with us that represent both ends of our spectrum. In this corner. Tom Wolfe, one of America’s best known and best selling authors. He’s credited with creating the new journalism movement along with the likes of Hunter Thompson and Gay Talese. He is also an artist.

An an illustrator who is designed the covers of several of his own books like he has expressed his strong ideas about art and design through several books and essays, including the painted word an from our house to Bauhaus. In those books he’s made the case that theory has become too important in art.

And that the art world is too controlled by a small elitist network of critics, dealers, and collectors. By the way he’s rumored to have a new book coming out in 2016. I was trying to meet with him for a couple of weeks over the summer and he kept delaying me because he was on deadline so.

I think the deadlines finished by now.

Or is it still?

Tom Wolfe

Got it, got some scrub me up to do.

So OK, OK, but anyway. So we finally did. We finally did get together and had a great afternoon in this corner. Tom Sachs. Tom is an artist, primarily a sculpture.

Best known for his elaborate recreations of cultural icons and luxury brands through duct tape, phone books, foamcore and police barricades like Tom Wolfe Sachs idolizes astronauts, and that thing has continued through his space program, NASA and.

Mars projects. He’s also written many things and produced many writings and and seems on his work usually also illustrated by him. He is interested in the traditional and the handmade and utilizes them in his work, and though the work may be beautiful, the underlying theme is always.

Conceptual, so whether it’s Tom versus Tom or Tom and Tom or Tom loves Tom, we’ll see how the thing goes tonight. I did want to also say thank you to Magnum real estate for hosting this event. We wanted you all to come here to see what our new student housing looks like.

This, by the way, is.

A double it’s not a single.

So just so you know.

And the school itself is just around the corner on Franklin Street between West Broadway and church. And for anybody who has not been there, please come and visit us. We have over 100 Studios with a constantly changing.

Array of very exciting, wonderful, an mostly figurative but not totally mostly figurative work, and we hope to see you next week. It takes a minute on October 18th.

Oh my God.

Dog on the 18th. And by the way, it’s at Sotheby’s not at the school, so don’t show up at the school. Tom Wolf will have a piece in it, and I, uh, I hope by the end of the night, time’s actually agreed to have a piece in it as well. This all is just an elaborate.

Setup to get it to come in something so.

But for tickets see the beautiful Allison Hillier over there or go to our website and wear white in honor of Tom Wolfe, who is one of the honorees along with the art critic Jerry Saltz, so without further ado, I give you Tom and Tom.

Tom Wolfe

Well, I’ll take a shot at.

Tom Wolfe

I did check 2 new.

Tom Wolfe

Art forms today.

Tom Wolfe

When I called, no hands are.

Tom Wolfe

And the other is 10 year apart, as in T for Tom EE for easy and for Nathan.

Tom Wolfe

You are in.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah.

Tom Wolfe

Probably the best examples of.

Tom Wolfe

No hands are Jeff Koons and Richard Serra.

Tom Wolfe

I was just looking at some pictures today.

Tom Wolfe

Jeff Koons and his woman, who was briefly married who called the Cuccinello, who gained fame through a scandal in Italy, was still famous when she came here.

Tom Wolfe

And they had some pictures taken polaroids. I believe of themselves in.

Tom Wolfe

I just about every position that nude bodies convenient.

Tom Wolfe

And so you can imagine.

Tom Wolfe

Um, I couldn’t.

Tom Wolfe

These were sent off to some elves.

Tom Wolfe

In the Midwest and we turned into 3 dimensional. The photographs he didn’t touch the intensity photographs they were sent off to some else in the Midwest I think was Cleveland and they converted him into 3 dimensional glass sculptures.

Tom Wolfe

Portugal.

Tom Wolfe

So extraordinary something.

Tom Wolfe

And there’s no, I mean they.

Tom Wolfe

I don’t know how many.

Tom Wolfe

Copies of each one there is, but there’s no.

Tom Wolfe

That is not necessary limit.

Tom Wolfe

He’s also done 45 for high rabbits.

Tom Wolfe

Other people did them made of dirt. Yeah, other people handling girls getting heated up this thing.

Tom Wolfe

And.

Tom Wolfe

These are a number of other.

Tom Wolfe

Works.

Tom Wolfe

Along that line.

Tom Wolfe

Can your heart?

Tom Wolfe

Is something different?

Tom Wolfe

A lot of it is conceptual art.

Tom Wolfe

And the idea is to.

Tom Wolfe

Well, I’ll give you an example.

Tom Wolfe

This is one I saw near Lakeland FL.

Tom Wolfe

The artist invited as many people as he could to.

Tom Wolfe

Media matters what was actually a like a small Lake.

Tom Wolfe

Coming and.

Tom Wolfe

He had with him 8.

Tom Wolfe

I’m really heavy chain. I barely heard that I’ve ever seen aside from something on a ship.

Tom Wolfe

Away delaughter either end of the chain he had a large polyurethane bag full of vegetables.

Tom Wolfe

So he laid the.

Tom Wolfe

Chain on top of the water.

Tom Wolfe

Um, of course I could be related to the bottom, but use mostly come back. I think it was 2 two months or something. I think I went. I was curious. I heard back.

Tom Wolfe

And now the chain was lying on with a stretch across the top of the water. The vegetables had rotted.

Tom Wolfe

Alright, in the bag creating a gas.

Tom Wolfe

That was enough to to lift it up. Now. I mean, I was astounded, but there’s no way you could sell that.

Tom Wolfe

That’s where tenure art comes in.

Tom Wolfe

Also, the tenure artists are conceptual, and if you can do enough things like that enough works like that and get some publicity.

Tom Wolfe

You have a pretty good shot at getting a job teaching on the faculty, and after six years it used to be 10 years after six years. Now you get tenure.

Tom Wolfe

And you’re not going to live this high, but you’re not going to have to live hard.

Tom Wolfe

You will be paid until your retirement age and then you get a pension.

Tom Wolfe

No more starving artist today.

Tom Wolfe

So.

Tom Wolfe

Those are I.

Tom Wolfe

I have changed.

Tom Wolfe

A lot since I wrote the painted.

Tom Wolfe

Work Oh my gosh, when did that come out?

Tom Wolfe

About 19, about 1980. I guess seven 1976.

Tom Wolfe

And it’s true.

Tom Wolfe

It’s exciting.

Tom Wolfe

No, I’m not done. That would be great.

Tom Sachs

I love those artists and this year we lost Chris Burton, who is the kind of artists who might have done a piece like the chain and the and the gas and the routing vegetables and.

Tom Sachs

I’m not sure.

Tom Sachs

How I fit in with that? But I I would say that.

Tom Sachs

Because I work with people and I do, I have.

Tom Sachs

Valves in the Midwest.

Tom Sachs

But I also have a team of 10 people that I work with and I I like to think of a studio as a as a teaching hospital.

Tom Sachs

Where there’s a lot of.

Tom Sachs

Devoted to what we do.

Tom Sachs

But um.

Tom Sachs

You know, I I.

Tom Sachs

I have to admit, you know I’m a huge fan which want that one of those. So anything that I say that’s smart, 60% of that came from Tom just recycling it.

Tom Sachs

Turned out to be no, but.

Tom Sachs

Then all the dumb stuff’s on the.

Tom Sachs

But I did read we read the pin word, which is great an I still still still think very relevant even though of course.

Tom Sachs

Rose

Tom Sachs

But I I guess I I was taken with a couple of things one.

Tom Sachs

There’s a passage about Picasso.

Tom Sachs

And in the painted world, I don’t know if you remember this, but you did write it.

Tom Sachs

We talk about.

Tom Wolfe

So he he he figured out.

Tom Wolfe

To get rich gracefully, yes.

Tom Sachs

And not have.

Tom Sachs

Holes in his sneakers, like I’m rocking today.

Tom Sachs

Bohemian and bourgeois at the same time.

Tom Sachs

Is that fair?

Tom Sachs

In our society it’s.

Tom Sachs

Tom Wolfe

Tom Sachs

You said.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah.

Tom Sachs

So I I, I think it’s interesting how and what I loved about painting. Word wasn’t so much all the art stuff because I don’t like. I don’t know. I hate art.

Tom Sachs

No, and that’s I make it because.

Tom Sachs

Yeah and no one else is.

Tom Sachs

Gonna do it right, so that’s why I do it.

Tom Sachs

Exactly right, I mean there.

Tom Sachs

Are couple of people in this room that do.

Tom Sachs

A pretty good job, no fans, but this constraint.

Tom Wolfe

Yes, there are going to be at when Rambo.

Tom Wolfe

Was informed by.

Tom Wolfe

A journalist that he wasn’t.

Tom Wolfe

Considered the greatest hits, 32 years old. Considered the greatest artist in France.

Tom Wolfe

His response was mid pull up Boise.

Tom Wolfe

Which I thought was and showed that he.

Tom Wolfe

Just didn’t care, right? He absolutely, absolutely didn’t care.

Tom Wolfe

Um?

Tom Wolfe

Yeah, I think because will carry.

Tom Wolfe

Now as my as I understand it.

Tom Wolfe

The Castle quit art school at 8:15, saying that there’s nothing more like teaching. Unfortunately, the very next month and next semester. Rather, they were teaching anatomy and perspective.

Tom Wolfe

And if I found myself in a hole like that.

Tom Wolfe

I didn’t finish something called Cubism.

Tom Wolfe

I had no perspective and it really doesn’t.

Tom Wolfe

Matter how you draw it again.

Tom Wolfe

But he that started it then started bad.

Tom Wolfe

Exactly 1900 to listen.

Tom Wolfe

And some of the other artists, friends who like.

Tom Wolfe

Right, for example, how?

Tom Wolfe

Couldn’t stand the.

Tom Wolfe

He’s got a cavalier attitude towards them.

Tom Wolfe

To the extent right down the.

Tom Wolfe

The attitude of artist today is his.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah.

Tom Wolfe

It’s pretty interesting to Maine.

Tom Wolfe

I’m trying to think they Maurizio.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah.

Tom Wolfe

Wow.

Tom Wolfe

Heading one of his recent works is manicle. Many cans of ship.

Tom Wolfe

And that’s what we get.

Tom Wolfe

Because this had been done before by.

Tom Sachs

Manzoni, yeah.

Tom Wolfe

It did something called a shitshow.

Tom Wolfe

And this is part of taking art out of the studio or studio environment.

Tom Wolfe

Um?

Tom Wolfe

And.

Tom Wolfe

Pushing in a ways.

Tom Wolfe

And there’s.

Tom Wolfe

You never performance, I didn’t.

Tom Wolfe

See much of that equipment.

Tom Wolfe

But performance art.

Tom Wolfe

What is her name she?

Tom Wolfe

Appears she doesn’t appear negative anymore.

Tom Wolfe

Maria yeah.

Tom Wolfe

Yes.

Tom Wolfe

I don’t know why she quits now, I mean.

Tom Wolfe

By clicking when you made it to 60 this way.

Tom Wolfe

But that’s kind of the way to just kind of the way it goes.

Tom Sachs

Will talk dentek. She keeps it going. It’s authentic.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah, exactly.

Tom Wolfe

One of her recent shows.

Tom Wolfe

To get to the show, unless she’s still going negative, this one. There were two naked people at the door.

Tom Wolfe

A man and a woman. And you had to squeeze between you think there’s no way you could walk again. You will squeeze between them to get just to see the top is lady inside.

Tom Wolfe

And.

Tom Wolfe

I suppose azarova kind.

Tom Wolfe

Well can I can I ask you some questions?

Tom Wolfe

Making sure not guaranteed to get ready.

Tom Wolfe

At some place.

Tom Sachs

Because there was an issue that to me is plaguing.

Tom Sachs

Me or it’s my if the focus of not just the art that I make any other artists in this room mate, but it’s almost the plague of consumerism. And it’s this constant search for authenticity.

Tom Sachs

And whether it’s Marina not being naked now that she’s 70. If that is an expression of inauthenticity or fear, or

Tom Sachs

Nothing, it’s just more UN gracefully than a beautiful woman’s ego or whatever.

Tom Sachs

Yeah.

Speaker 2

The the desire for authenticity is.

Tom Sachs

Seems like the most valuable thing that we have this culture makers.

Tom Sachs

And whether that’s authenticity of an experience as told by a writer or the authentic experience of Art, where does it come from? Why are these people making these things like? Why would you make?

Tom Sachs

The performance piece you just described or what would you make a giant?

Tom Sachs

Bunny or whatever.

Tom Sachs

Pictures of you and your girlfriend made into glass.

Speaker 2

I mean, I think I.

Speaker 2

I think I know why I do it, but I’m curious if you if you know if you’ve been able to.

Tom Sachs

Through all of your.

Tom Sachs

Observations of not just art, but the world find a connection between the different kinds of authenticity that people seek and why they make stuff.

Tom Wolfe

I think most people who become artists or writers.

Tom Wolfe

I have no idea of making a.

Tom Wolfe

Living, I mean that just seems.

Tom Wolfe

Somehow you’ll do it.

Tom Wolfe

Which is kind of is.

Tom Wolfe

Is it’s kind of nice.

Tom Wolfe

But there’s always a danger if you made it with one particular picture or piece of music, or it may be.

Tom Wolfe

That you get.

Tom Wolfe

You get stuck in that because success. You don’t want to let that success go.

Tom Wolfe

He was born in human.

Tom Wolfe

Spent the last 22 years of his life so trying to workout.

Tom Wolfe

The problem is, if any of putting.

Tom Wolfe

Stripes of color assigned.

Tom Wolfe

One another, I think it could have moved on he saw.

Tom Sachs

Who is so good at it?

Tom Wolfe

People liked it. I mean they are.

Tom Wolfe

The art world, but why is it that I love the phrase The Art World?

Tom Wolfe

The art world.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah, I figured is made of made up of. I used to. I used to fit the figure of 10,000 people worldwide album maybe.

Tom Wolfe

Is a little more now, but of which about 3000, when the United States and 2700 of those with in our toasted New York.

Tom Wolfe

And that’s probably changed. This probably changed.

Tom Wolfe

A little a little bit.

Tom Wolfe

And.

Tom Wolfe

The idea that.

Tom Wolfe

The public is turning it back on great art.

Tom Wolfe

Is a.

Tom Wolfe

Laughable.

Tom Wolfe

Oh laughable theory, because they don’t see great art. They’re sending memo after it’s done saying This is.

Tom Wolfe

These are the Great.

Tom Wolfe

Artist in this year.

Tom Wolfe

And they either just accept that or or they don’t. But then the the 3000, let’s say if that’s a correct number in New York there.

Tom Wolfe

Or the least of all groups.

Tom Wolfe

The critics of Messenger boys today.

Tom Wolfe

They just get the word from the art world.

Tom Wolfe

And they bring it to the newspapers. When’s the last time you saw a printing on a major newspaper or magazine? Go out on a limb saying This is like this guy is the greatest?

Tom Wolfe

You’ve never seen anyone you when nobody else was agreeing. It doesn’t happen anymore. It used to happen where there would be prediction made later point.

Tom Wolfe

Oh, going out ahead of the crowd, no, no longer.

Tom Wolfe

And it’s I think there’s kind of that that that’s kind of A.

Tom Wolfe

A shame, but the art world is made up of Curators.

Tom Wolfe

Um?

Tom Wolfe

Collectors and Gallery owners.

Tom Wolfe

Um and.

Tom Wolfe

Some artists so that there.

Tom Wolfe

Are some artists who remember that after that world?

Tom Wolfe

And they make all of the decisions and the same thing is true in Italy. Same is true in France, England.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah.

Tom Wolfe

Anne.

Tom Wolfe

It’s it is not a world, it’s a, It’s a.

Tom Wolfe

It’s a complete, it’s a community.

Tom Wolfe

Oh, I love things today though I notices.

Tom Wolfe

Can we talk about the money in our?

Tom Wolfe

There is a.

Tom Wolfe

Very wealthy collectors have a tremendous impact.

Tom Wolfe

In art is a.

Tom Wolfe

Interesting if you think of it as a commodity. It’s about the only one in which every.

Tom Wolfe

Piece is unique.

Tom Wolfe

Oh, you can you know books you can sell?

Tom Wolfe

Yeah.

Tom Wolfe

300,000 copies of.

Tom Wolfe

The book and there’s nobody.

Tom Wolfe

Feels OK with them.

Tom Wolfe

Epic Laidlaw said authenticity of the piece.

Tom Wolfe

But in in artists and art, it’s a different story.

Tom Sachs

Is some says the?

Tom Sachs

World’s largest unregulated commodities market.

Tom Wolfe

That is true. I mean, there are things you can do in the ways you get hyped. Certain people got high prices.

Tom Wolfe

That would be literally against the law.

Tom Sachs

Yeah, it happens. I’ve seen it.

Tom Wolfe

And any any other industry that.

Tom Wolfe

Was I think all our industry.

Tom Wolfe

Oh, and.

Tom Wolfe

When you get into esoteric things like furniture.

Tom Wolfe

Oh, and there’s a furniture auction coming up.

Tom Wolfe

The planning done by the major dealer ‘cause, nobody, but the deals really knows what’s going on in the furniture.

Tom Wolfe

The planning on who’s on things like who’s going to win the auction.

Tom Wolfe

Yes, that would be allowed either. I mean not even be allowed, you’re right.

Tom Sachs

Well, eventually I can see that that stuff changing, but for now it’s still.

Tom Sachs

It’s still a little still, little Gray.

Tom Sachs

But to me, going back to the idea of the critics seemed a little heartbreaking. Is did. Did anyone know or study with Sidney tell ‘em, do you know, Sidney?

Tom Sachs

It must not.

Tom Sachs

Anyway, said he said that a critic.

Tom Sachs

He wrote for arts and.

Tom Sachs

Other things, and he he wrote.

Tom Sachs

Critic is a man with ideas. I think that’s what you were saying, that you barely see. An art art critic in a newspaper standing up and saying.

Tom Sachs

Anything one way or another about an artist usually.

Tom Sachs

If anything will condemn it ‘cause everyone thought.

Tom Sachs

That once it loves to be a hater that’s easy.

Tom Sachs

Goal, that’s where I was going. That’s where I’m like, Mike fast even with tile I’m not afraid of drilling into tile.

Tom Sachs

But community is very important and we need people with ideas and the critics that I run into very often use overly complex words like to shore up their on on complex ideas.

Tom Sachs

God love relational aesthetics. That’s not my favorite. One state I’ve just been watching Hennessy youngman. Is anyone watch Tennessee younger OK? Does anyone worship at the temple in Tennessee?

Tom Sachs

Is great critic art critic and who is up his medium is on YouTube so you can go watch him talk about art on YouTube and his his bit about relational aesthetics. Relational aesthetics is basically.

Tom Sachs

Have a have a party invite all your friends in an art Gallery and.

Tom Sachs

Caller relational aesthetics that state this issue takes a little.

Tom Sachs

Better than that.

Tom Sachs

But that seems to be refined. Keeps it that simple.

Tom Wolfe

Or what’s going to happen?

Tom Wolfe

When I moved into the area of the Instagram.

Tom Wolfe

And Twitter, yes.

Tom Sachs

28,000 followers everybody.

Tom Wolfe

That’s gonna be interesting.

Tom Sachs

It’s there I am obsessed with it. I’m embarrassed and mortified, that’s my crack.

Tom Sachs

Speaker 2

What the **** man? Why didn’t you give me a little fair warning?

Tom Sachs

Stuff like that. ‘cause what I’m gonna get?

Speaker 2

But it is community.

Tom Sachs

And I’m reaching 28,000 people are scanning past that in a 10th of a second.

Tom Wolfe

It’s not bad 28,000.

Tom Sachs

These are real followers. These aren’t random like phony Asian like cyborgs. These are real people.

Tom Wolfe

Marshall Mcluhan

Tom Wolfe

Sanism in the I’ve got 1967.

Tom Wolfe

That

Tom Wolfe

OK.

Tom Wolfe

In, in, in, in the future.

Tom Wolfe

There will be no.

Tom Wolfe

Really, no audience for newspapers and magazines said that by itself is a shrimp, and he said it’s because the new generation of people born.

Tom Wolfe

50s I guess he said are.

Tom Wolfe

They are the television has turned tribal Adonis. We could explain.

Tom Wolfe

The steps here.

Tom Wolfe

Television is turned in trouble and tribal people.

Tom Wolfe

If handed a piece of paper.

Tom Wolfe

With writing on it.

Tom Wolfe

Assume it’s a trip.

Tom Wolfe

They won’t believe.

Tom Wolfe

Anything that somebody hasn’t told it personally.

Tom Wolfe

And that has come true.

Tom Wolfe

Today

Tom Wolfe

Do you think of blogs?

Tom Wolfe

A blog is that guy whispering in your ear.

Tom Wolfe

And as you.

Tom Wolfe

But people really do pay attention to compliance, even if the blog says something like.

Tom Wolfe

Dawson

Tom Wolfe

I can’t remember his first name, but that’s OK in the block.

Tom Wolfe

You can go on like that.

Tom Wolfe

There’s less and less news is checked.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Tom Wolfe

I mean, I knew I worked on newspapers here for 10 years and.

Tom Wolfe

Constantly checking out facts, constantly checking, calling your people to make.

Tom Wolfe

Sure you got it right.

Tom Sachs

But if you, if you follow A blog or your.

Tom Sachs

That’s your part of your tribe. You trap. You’re trusting that person, even if their crazy and more on research.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah, well, it’s I. I agree with that.

Tom Wolfe

English education beats 2.

Tom Wolfe

Just to see what the the trends are. Only education Peter newspaper. He’s lucky if you got two stories in the newspaper of week, but you’re out there talking to attack, that’s it.

Tom Wolfe

It just doesn’t happen any longer.

Tom Wolfe

I don’t know who you trust.

Tom Sachs

Yeah, I don’t. I wanna say you know, Trust Beyoncé, but you can’t.

Tom Wolfe

Well, I don’t know why I haven’t been listening to her recently.

Tom Wolfe

I’ve seen it again.

Speaker 2

But this is there.

Speaker 2

Is there art that you love? So there is as much as I hate art?

Tom Sachs

And you know, I always think of what C Montgomery Burns says I.

Tom Sachs

Who’s the evil power plant owner of The Simpsons?

Tom Sachs

I don’t know about art.

Tom Sachs

But I know what I hate and I don’t hate this that much.

Tom Sachs

And there are things that I loved out there or I should say that things I don’t hate that much. Is there anything that you don’t hate that much?

Tom Wolfe

Well my I try not to let this influence my opinions, but my favorite artist.

Tom Wolfe

Worked for a magazine called simpler systems. Needed social satire and they had been influenced by the discovery of Japanese painting, which the discovery was late in the 19th century.

Tom Wolfe

And so they were terrific.

Tom Wolfe

You all.

Tom Wolfe

Trained artists that were terrific at doing features, particularly faces on hands, but they would leave other spaces.

Tom Wolfe

Blank or just a solid? A solid color.

Tom Wolfe

And people like, Oh Laughable. Branson, one of the best Bruno Paul Rudolph Vilca.

Tom Wolfe

Um?

Tom Wolfe

I look at those magazines.

Tom Wolfe

Scott is over.

Tom Wolfe

In fact, I have some some bounding simply so this big.

Tom Wolfe

Um?

Tom Wolfe

And you don’t do it today. The satirical artists are not trained artists most of the time. You can see this in in. In political cartoons came really.

Tom Wolfe

Do not know any anatomy.

Tom Wolfe

It’s a scared.

Tom Wolfe

I think I’m better would all be. I don’t care what what side they’re on. If they were just Masters with it.

Tom Wolfe

Of the craft.

Tom Wolfe

But maybe that’s asking.

Tom Sachs

Yeah, I don’t I.

Tom Wolfe

Didn’t I didn’t do it now?

Tom Sachs

But I but I, you know someone should. Drawing is is about confidence, right? It’s just about having, I think I can draw better than anybody.

Tom Sachs

Else in this room, but.

Tom Sachs

But my way.

Tom Wolfe

That’s fair enough.

Tom Wolfe

And can’t argue with that.

Tom Wolfe

Exactly, I think the greatest thing about drawing as a test whether you want to do drawings or not.

Tom Wolfe

Indicate you have control that you can do exactly what you what you want, and then you can go.

Tom Wolfe

It’s almost like a.

Tom Wolfe

Basic training I think. Then you go off and do anything you want.

Tom Wolfe

Do anything.

Tom Wolfe

Search for drawing.

Tom Wolfe

Adam.

Tom Wolfe

Today in many ways.

Tom Wolfe

It’s conceptual art takes take center stage in the.

Tom Wolfe

In the 20th century.

Tom Wolfe

There was a constant attempt to refine art.

Tom Wolfe

So Cubism becomes a reaction against.

Tom Wolfe

Falls studio work.

Tom Wolfe

And then.

Tom Wolfe

You get all into all the.

Tom Wolfe

The isn’t something.

Tom Wolfe

The late teens and 19.

Tom Wolfe

Vorticism band

Tom Wolfe

Solidly left, impressionism fine, but

Tom Wolfe

Until finally

Tom Wolfe

We got the abstract expression of how many people remember that they could never sell those bags they could. They could praise him through the skies, but nobody would thought.

Tom Wolfe

A friend of mine was one time train.

Tom Wolfe

And this is at a time when.

Tom Wolfe

He had had double tracked spreads in life magazines.

Tom Wolfe

Calling him

Jack

Tom Wolfe

The Dripper.

Tom Wolfe

You couldn’t get anymore publicity.

Tom Wolfe

They were just not. It was just not something that’s why.

Tom Wolfe

People love pop art so much collectors did.

Tom Wolfe

But pop artists could not do anything they wanted. I mean, they had. They had to do things that had already been done. You think of all the love comics?

Tom Wolfe

Right, I can see that.

Tom Wolfe

Carpet, pretty pretty.

Tom Wolfe

Faithfully, if you try to do something.

Tom Wolfe

Creative you would be.

Tom Wolfe

You would be left out of the loop.

Tom Wolfe

But instead of.

Tom Wolfe

And.

Tom Wolfe

I thought that was that was Andy Warhol.

Tom Wolfe

You done.

Tom Wolfe

He do.

Tom Wolfe

A piece about a car wreck into several words, but it’s very important that they be painted. Photographs of actual car wrecks rather than something that came out of his.

Tom Wolfe

Imagination then that was finally superseded by.

Tom Wolfe

Things are the same tiny retire in their scope.

Tom Wolfe

Such as.

Tom Wolfe

How you feel you finally get down to two things like.

Tom Wolfe

Conceptual art.

Tom Wolfe

In which.

Tom Wolfe

People try to make it.

Tom Wolfe

Smaller and smaller and smaller to find you get.

Tom Wolfe

The plastic piece I’m trying to think.

Tom Wolfe

I tried with the artist was in which he just had a list of instructions we said.

Tom Sachs

Solo it.

Tom Wolfe

It was great.

Tom Wolfe

I said you may view the.

Tom Wolfe

Picture or maybe view the work of water you don’t, but you don’t have to.

Tom Wolfe

And or you can can view it and remember it.

Tom Wolfe

Oh, you don’t have to even look at it. And this is this and this is just.

Tom Wolfe

That was about as as tiny as his experience of argument could get other than just simply.

Tom Wolfe

Not looking at, not writing.

Tom Sachs

I would argue that the conceptual artists, like the ones that when you’re talking about, we’re actually finding an authentic experience. Whereas like if you look at the.

Tom Sachs

Abstract, expected Rippers or the OR the Barnett newmans, obsessing about how colors and stripes were.

Tom Sachs

Next to each other.

Tom Sachs

Then I imagine the conceptual artists traveling to California.

Tom Sachs

Leaving New York which is.

Tom Sachs

The people in the art world that left Paris.

Tom Sachs

And you can.

Tom Sachs

Bruce, now more solid part.

Tom Sachs

John baldassarri fans down on the ground he picks up.

Tom Sachs

All these guys.

Tom Sachs

They were able to find something that communicated about their experience.

Tom Wolfe

And, well, I don’t know what I like is doing when he builds a.

Tom Wolfe

Should we call it?

Tom Wolfe

A piece of sculpture out of 1200 bicycles.

Tom Wolfe

And they are looking at different angles upon each other, so that finally.

Tom Wolfe

The Tower of bicycles.

Tom Wolfe

Is 900 feet.

Tom Wolfe

It’s like a nine Storey building.

Tom Wolfe

Um?

Tom Wolfe

I don’t know the word that many bicycles or investing in China. I guess there are probably lots of ‘em.

Tom Wolfe

This was done on a.

Tom Wolfe

A small scale by Gabriel Roscoe. No kindling.

Tom Wolfe

Famous Alaska.

Tom Wolfe

And he did.

Tom Wolfe

A sculptor, just four bicycles. It’s much admired.

Tom Wolfe

But

Tom Wolfe

It’s this there is a a definite trend which using things that are already made.

Tom Wolfe

And.

Tom Wolfe

Museum in in, in, in, in. Different and in different ways and and there are people.

Tom Wolfe

Could say that what the New York Academy does.

Tom Wolfe

Is it unthinkable?

Tom Wolfe

That was done in.

Tom Wolfe

1645

Tom Wolfe

That’s a, That’s one of the reasons.

Tom Wolfe

I like the Academy so much it it’s not afraid to be revolutionary service. It’s a revolutionary approach.

Tom Wolfe

These days

Tom Wolfe

And in in, in a way, it’s too bad that photography exists because in the past.

Tom Wolfe

You could paint a portrait.

Tom Wolfe

And a generation later, everybody is in fact, that’s.

Tom Wolfe

That’s Sir Henry.

Tom Wolfe

To handle the smallest detail ‘cause nobody can check, yeah, check it out.

Tom Wolfe

Now you can check out these things out.

Tom Wolfe

You know the portraitists often have a saying.

Tom Wolfe

There’s a little something wrong.

Tom Wolfe

About the mouth, yeah.

Tom Wolfe

And often there is, but it was in the past. Nobody had anybody had that.

Tom Wolfe

That problem, what the disappearance of gradual disappearance?

Tom Wolfe

Newspapers are going to do that.

Tom Wolfe

So now I I don’t. I really don’t know.

Tom Wolfe

Can’t be with somebody.

Tom Sachs

Well, I have to agree it’s the schools important because one of the things that the hardest to master about being an artist is.

Tom Sachs

Taking time to really see things for what they are.

Tom Sachs

And the studio’s Bible is.

Tom Sachs

Lawrence Weschler’s book. About Robert Irwin.

Tom Sachs

Seeing is forgetting the name of the thing that one sees.

Tom Sachs

Meditative Act and.

Tom Sachs

It’s one of the foundations for thinking about stuff and without thinking about things. It’s not really art unless it’s.

Tom Sachs

I don’t know.

Tom Sachs

Some kind of?

Tom Sachs

Primal Scream are thing where it’s just about you’re in but.

Tom Sachs

And I think that’s got great virtues, so with you.

Tom Wolfe

Well, I learned well. I think I learn anatomy by.

Tom Wolfe

Doing drawings of boxes in Ring magazine.

Tom Wolfe

That was great. I mean, you really get a lot of angles, bodies and so forth. The one problem is their hands are covered these drugs.

Tom Wolfe

So then I realized.

Tom Wolfe

Then it became an obsession with me.

Tom Wolfe

Learning to draw hands.

Tom Wolfe

And now I I must confess, I judged mostly realistic work. First, like first, I go to the hands.

Tom Sachs

What do you think of Leonardo?

Tom Sachs

I’m trying to remember who is famous for being bad at drawing hands, right? That’s one of those weird things. If it means like the artist, right?

Tom Wolfe

Well, that was certainly true love.

Tom Wolfe

Along with the Eric.

Tom Wolfe

Rockstar points and of course Picasso well. Picasso had been so distorted even he did not draw. He didn’t really have to draw hands.

Tom Wolfe

But others, when they were in that.

Tom Wolfe

Early bound and Arthur is still doing figures.

Tom Wolfe

It was ingenious.

Tom Wolfe

Where they would hide the hands behind the back.

Tom Wolfe

Because they just couldn’t do them.

Tom Wolfe

‘cause you’ve got five different planes. I gotta figure out that you’re working with.

Tom Wolfe

Maybe I shouldn’t be so narrow minded, just keep looking at hands like that.

Tom Sachs

It’s the ultimate measure.

Tom Sachs

Well, tans is how how we think right without our hands where.

Tom Wolfe

You know we’re.

Tom Sachs

Not human.

Tom Sachs

I need to be there, have been great books.

Tom Sachs

About the how that in hand in the brain have to evolve together the opposable thumb.

Tom Sachs

Oh, there’s another whole Ave.

Tom Wolfe

Evolutionary.

Tom Wolfe

Science.

Tom Wolfe

There’s a lot about the relationship between hands and speech.

Tom Wolfe

As if you couldn’t can’t do speech without the hands, I don’t know if that’s true or not.

Tom Sachs

Well, there’s that fantastic, like the best worst written best book ever called a Craftsman by Richard Sennett.

Tom Sachs

I don’t know if you’re going to read that one.

Tom Wolfe

I know who he is.

Tom Sachs

Great premise and he goes extensively into conversation to thought about.

Tom Sachs

The about the hand.

Tom Sachs

And how it’s an extension of our mind?

Tom Wolfe

Well, if you get into.

Tom Wolfe

If you find a civilization that made tools.

Tom Wolfe

You can be sure.

Tom Wolfe

But they could speak.

Tom Wolfe

Give speeches.

Tom Wolfe

Speech is the primal artifact.

Tom Wolfe

And only when you have.

Tom Wolfe

Speech can you make other artifacts whether.

Tom Wolfe

It’s an axle or.

Tom Wolfe

747 Air Airplane

Tom Wolfe

It’s a whole universe.

Tom Wolfe

Yeah.

Tom Wolfe

But if it runs against.

Tom Wolfe

The The Science of painting which is I keep being told. I don’t really understand what it means, is that right brain activity.

Tom Wolfe

Because I asked it well anyway.

Tom Sachs

We build a 747 by.

Tom Sachs

Cooperating with each other, we can’t. No man can build a 747 by themselves.

Tom Wolfe

So they can build on actually lived up to.

Tom Wolfe

Honey again, having that.

Tom Sachs

Right, it takes and so that speech, and that’s how we dominate is through cooperation, right?

Oh, Speaking of speech and hands, I wanted to see if anybody wanted to raise their hand and ask questions to be there. These two gentlemen in the remaining time that we have.

Speaker 3

This whole Rd. The first great piece about the excess is of art. Collecting in 1968 about the skulls.

Speaker 3

And I was wondering, when you split this that excess if you ever imagined that it could just keep going and keep going and keep going.

Tom Wolfe

That book had absolutely no effect.

Tom Wolfe

O it did keep going.

Tom Wolfe

And going and going.

Tom Wolfe

Until.

Tom Wolfe

Until you have things like no hands are. I mean when you consider that Jeff Curbs now has 120 people, that’s the last figure I saw.

Tom Wolfe

Working for him.

Tom Wolfe

And then they do.

Tom Wolfe

Drawings that he indicates after the conception of on a computer and then they use computers and so you have those drawings by Jeff Koons.

Tom Wolfe

Who could say?

Tom Wolfe

But it’s a huge. It’s a. It’s a huge operation. This is big and operational.

Tom Wolfe

Biggest operation is in any of the greatest challenge of the Renaissance. Yeah, they had. They had some lots of lots of folks. Raphael had lots of folks.

Tom Wolfe

But

Tom Wolfe

That

Tom Wolfe

That that beats all.

Tom Wolfe

Who would have ever seen him coming?

Tom Wolfe

2030 years ago, when I wrote that book.

Tom Wolfe

Like as both the tones are when you discuss.

Tom Wolfe

The diminishment of people’s hearts.

Speaker 3

End of newspapers of administrative newspapers.

Tom Wolfe

I notebook I would send it totally unreadable and I love.

Tom Sachs

Him worst written best book is such a good idea, worse crafted.

Speaker 4

What else do you think we’re losing and is it lost, or is something else replacing it that you are excited enough? That is a good thing? Or is it all downhill from here?

Tom Wolfe

Well defined, one big problem, I think is that, Oh yeah.

Tom Wolfe

I got the more common.

Tom Wolfe

Hello.

Tom Wolfe

One big.

Tom Wolfe

Problem is.

Tom Wolfe

Well it is, I call.

Tom Wolfe

Digital knitting

Tom Wolfe

And that’s where all these things are that the digital telephones, Instagram, Twitter, Twitter.

Tom Wolfe

No.

Tom Wolfe

Anne.

Tom Wolfe

Number of others I had I really know.

Tom Wolfe

Understand how to use it gives people away to knitting used to be a woman’s occupation.

Tom Wolfe

To kill time would but at.

Tom Wolfe

The end, at least you had a pair of socks.

Tom Wolfe

Houma killing time today you don’t get anything.

Tom Wolfe

And the information is probably bad too.

Tom Wolfe

This is a strange thing, well.

Tom Sachs

I see it another way and that’s the sure all the best artists are in Silicon Valley. They were wasting their time making sculptures like paintings and stuff. They’re making iPhones and.

Tom Sachs

Inventing things like Uber that change the way we get around, but the other side is that all of this information is opened up a world of possibilities and it’s this incredible research tool and and maybe it’s in a way a reaction against some of this of the ******** of.

Tom Sachs

Twitter and the emptiness that all that. And that’s where it really is. Empty the putty. I call it. Oh wait, I’m going to elevate it for 45 seconds. I can be doing something with this time.

Tom Sachs

Checking Instagram or whatever.

Tom Sachs

But what we found is that there’s all this information, and that’s why we have this incredible.

Tom Sachs

Pardon the expression.

Tom Sachs

Artisanal movement we’ve got people making their own knives and butchering their own animals and and knitting. If you want to get a facehugger from alien on it into a sweater and a reverse hoodie that you can pull over your face, you can find someone who will.

Tom Sachs

Knit you that.

Tom Sachs

In Pepsi

Tom Sachs

And see it’s like eBay, but it’s really.

Tom Sachs

For craft and it’s a lot of it, most of it’s crap, but you can find some great. You can find a woman in Iowa who’s who’s retired who will make you whatever you want and you can build a relationship with her and she can.

Tom Sachs

Make that because she’s been knitting her whole life.

Tom Sachs

And you have access to that. Now. If you’re willing to dig a little bit so.

Tom Sachs

And artists have always been Sala, Terry, people, even someone like Andy Warhol, who is a huge celebrity even in this time ultimately of time by yourself. You know when you’re writing or drawing, it’s by yourself. And I don’t. I don’t think that’s changed, it’s just a different.

Tom Sachs

Way of negotiating the world. A more superficial, quick, ******** way. But the information is there, you might have to, you know, the websites only take you so far. It might eventually you have to buy a book which is just like a computer.

Tom Sachs

Keep turning the screens over and over again.

Tom Wolfe

You mentioned the quarrel, I think back. In fact, if he appeared he was, he understood. So if he appeared on a talk show, he would never talk, he twisted the.

Tom Wolfe

Answer into the ear.

Tom Wolfe

Affordable associate he brought.

Tom Wolfe

Wrong with him.

Tom Wolfe

And there are some people like Andy world who cannot improve in other peoples estimation by talking talk show.

Tom Wolfe

Um, like Elvis Presley never went on.

Tom Wolfe

Attachment can only decrease his his his standing.

Tom Wolfe

Now everyone is including me is sort of happy about being on talk show.

Tom Wolfe

Kill your reputation real fast.

Tom Sachs

No, rehearsal just is 1 one go.